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PnDsCm
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Post by PnDsCm » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:22 am

Hey Frogg,

You really should be writing for someone you know. You've got enough left wing vitriol to entertain the liberal masses and you have the blue-collar cred to go with it. I bet you could easily find an audience for some sort of "Tales from the Trenches" or something.

At the very least you should be writing diaries on DailyKos. They'd dig you a lot. I fear that your writing is wasted on a sparsely populated Seattle metal board.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I'm sincerely trying to move past this thing as a partisan issue. I really believe that the only conflict in this country is about the people vs. the elite and that any left/right strife is only the result of media brainwashing. The people who actually make this country what it is are fed up with having the fruits of their labors taken periodically by engineered economic bombs. I believe we are just in the beginning stages of an awakening to what has really been going on.
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Post by The Green Manalishi » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:39 pm

derek666 wrote:There are lots of Icelanders around here, I am a quarter and 3/4 Norwegian, so actually that would make me 100% Norwegian since Icelanders are Norwegian settlers. There are probably hundreds up in Ballard?!?!
Sorry, I meant straight from the Old Country with their Passport, Visa & I94. Still jet-lagged with airline food in their tummies.

Yes, Ballard is full of Settlers from that part of the world.

:cool:
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Post by The Green Manalishi » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:51 pm

Frog. Froggy, Frogster...you really school me on what-the-hell is what. Thanks.

I hear ya, you know the cracker-jack box I live in...thank god Raven's a dog and I can feed him kibble. Otherwise I'd be in a hellava stituation.

My heart goes out to the working families.

Reports today show that more Armed forces killed themselves in January '09 that where actually killed in Combat overseas last month. (WTF???????) Messed up.

I gotta stick my head in the sand (or cartoons), I'm starting to froth again at the mouth.
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Post by 4G » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:38 am

DeathFrogg wrote: If you're making more than $10 million a year, you should be paying at least 70% of your income in taxes.
I don't usually comment in here anymore, but I have to say that this is crazy. If any of you on this board broke it big and happened to sell a million albums, would you be ok with giving away 70% of the money you make? What is the incentive to do better and try to hit it big? Why open a business? Why play professional sports?

I would love to get the reaction of people in Hollywood that make 10 million or more a movie being told that 70% of it is going to taxes. Corporate CEOs are not the only rich people in this country, although they seem to be the only target.

What about Politicians like ex-presidents who get 1-2 million dollars per appearance? David letterman? Oprah etc?

I doubt they would support such a thing. But everyone supports getting the CEO of a big company because corporations are bad. This has bigger implications that people realize. Why don't we just limit everyone’s income? After we do it to the rich, then the next tier becomes the rich so we do it to them. Let's just all make 30k a year so no one is left out, but the Government can take it all and be rich. They already skip on their taxes anyway.

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Post by DeathFrogg » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:24 pm

Interesting lil tidbit.

I had heard something about a bank run a few months ago, but it wasn't reported by the so-called "main stream media so I didn't give it much thought. If this dudes on the up and up, we seriously dodged a bullet last september.

Start collecting rope. 1" semitwist hemp should be perfect.
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Post by DeathFrogg » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:02 pm

Image
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When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. -Sinclair Lewis


"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. - Thomas Jefferson

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Post by DeathFrogg » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:14 pm

4G wrote:I don't usually comment in here anymore, but I have to say that this is crazy. If any of you on this board broke it big and happened to sell a million albums, would you be ok with giving away 70% of the money you make? What is the incentive to do better and try to hit it big? Why open a business? Why play professional sports?

I would love to get the reaction of people in Hollywood that make 10 million or more a movie being told that 70% of it is going to taxes. Corporate CEOs are not the only rich people in this country, although they seem to be the only target.

What about Politicians like ex-presidents who get 1-2 million dollars per appearance? David letterman? Oprah etc?

I doubt they would support such a thing. But everyone supports getting the CEO of a big company because corporations are bad. This has bigger implications that people realize. Why don't we just limit everyone’s income? After we do it to the rich, then the next tier becomes the rich so we do it to them. Let's just all make 30k a year so no one is left out, but the Government can take it all and be rich. They already skip on their taxes anyway.

4G
Why is it crazy? $10 million a year, - 70% on taxes, and you still make $3 million.

Besides, name one musician or actor thats come out as new in the last ten years thats making that kind of money. Entertainment is a non-essential luxury in any case. Personally, I get some pretty damn good entertainment from the local bands, and it doesn't cost me hardly a dime. Record company executives hate guys like me.

Sports celebrities are horribly overpaid for what they do, and are mostly responsible for game tickets costing $100 and hotdogs costing $10 in the stadium. Twelve dollars for a watery flat warm beer? Gimme a break. The NFL is a joke.

The top 400 income earners in this country, make an average of $235 million or so per year. They pay less than 17%. And with tax breaks and industrial development incentives and direct subsidies, they end up paying a lot less than that. An awful lot of the people making that kind of scratch pay no taxes at all.

If they payed 70%, they would still make $70,500,000 per year. Everyone at that income level are Bankers, stock/commodoties brokers and extraction industry/oil men, and inherited their massive family fortunes and buisinesses. They didn't work for it. Even Bill Gates doesn't have that kind of income. Seriously.

If you can't maintain your lifestyle on that, I have no sympathy.

And you think there aren't buisinesses out there doing some seriously corrupt, evil shit?
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When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. -Sinclair Lewis


"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. - Thomas Jefferson

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Post by soundguy » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:44 pm

A 70% tax rate is idiotic, Marxist, redistribution-of-wealth bullshit. Only someone who had NO dreams of ever making more than subsistence wages would even think of suggesting it. Keep your hands out of MY pockets!

Fortunately, my business is international and I already have facilities, partnerships, and accounts in half a dozen countries. If it ever came to that, the US could simply kiss my fucking ass while I moved everything offshore to a nation that wasn't run by fucking communists.

What this country needs is a 10% across-the-board flat income tax with NO deductions of any kind. Everyone pays - rich and poor. Couple that with a constitutional amendment that makes deficit spending treasonous and you'd see a LOT less bullshit government spending.
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Post by BigHurknFrontman » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:03 pm

4G wrote: Corporate CEOs are not the only rich people in this country, although they seem to be the only target.

What about Politicians like ex-presidents who get 1-2 million dollars per appearance? David letterman? Oprah etc?


Not to burst your bubble or anything, but I don't recall Oprah's enterprise going down the toilet by way of her own mis-management, only to JACK the taxpayers out of even more money to make sure her enterprise didn't actually swirl down the pipe.

Corporate CEOs are a target because their behavior warrants the fucking crosshairs... not because they're rich.
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Post by DeathFrogg » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:55 am

soundguy wrote:A 70% tax rate is idiotic, Marxist, redistribution-of-wealth bullshit. Only someone who had NO dreams of ever making more than subsistence wages would even think of suggesting it. Keep your hands out of MY pockets!

What this country needs is a 10% across-the-board flat income tax with NO deductions of any kind. Everyone pays - rich and poor. Couple that with a constitutional amendment that makes deficit spending treasonous and you'd see a LOT less bullshit government spending.


Oh, so you're making tens of millions a year? I didn't realize you were so wealthy.

Neither you, nor anyone you know will be in that tax bracket, ever. That tax rate should be for the people who "work" a few days a month, inherited their money, and play the stock markets like some kind of game.

When that 91% tax bracket was in force, tuition at a public university cost about $60 a quarter. Textbooks were purchased by the Government and heavily subsidized. The interstate Highway system was built. They actually taught things like music, industrial arts and science in public schools, and those schools had the equipment and qualified teachers to teach those subjects. They also had staff to keep them clean and in good repair. We sent people to the moon. National and State parks were nearly impeccably maintained by people actually educated in conservative forestry. A veteran of military service could slap a thousand dollars down and get an FHA loan for a house to raise his kids in.

Veterans hospitals were staffed and well maintained (at least untill Johnson became president, he chopped funding so bad that rats were appearing in surgical theaters in 1967 and one hospital actually killed more people in 1969 than it saved). Johnson was a pig.

People were actually able to save some money for retirement without the ponzi scams of IRAs and Money Market Funds. We were a CREDITOR nation. And we still managed to have most of the wealthiest people in the world.
Fortunately, my business is international and I already have facilities, partnerships, and accounts in half a dozen countries. If it ever came to that, the US could simply kiss my fucking ass while I moved everything offshore to a nation that wasn't run by fucking communists.
Eisenhower preserved the 91% top tax bracket during both his terms as president. As did Truman, Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon. The flat tax was proposed and laughed out of congress several times during the 1950s for a good reason. Are you calling Dwight D. Eisenhower a communist? The flat tax doesnt work. it leaves a third of the coutry homeless and another third owning everything in sight. You pay more taxes than Donald Trump.

You think offshoring profits is not not happening now? What the fuck. GM and Ford and Chrysler closed plants all over the midwest throughout the 90's and the 00's. They built massive plants in Mexico, Costa Rica and China and layed off thousands of people here in the US. The quality of the cars and trucks they build is in the shitter. The textile industry has moved to China and the south pacific islands. We import nearly every article of clothing we wear. Boeing builds most of its aircraft parts in Korea and Japan and Indonesia, and the quality of the work is terrible. The delays in the 787 are a direct result of that.

Right now, under the current system, Hundreds of billions of dollars are being moved offshore. A Company that makes money overseas isn't required to pay a penny of taxes on that money at all. Halliburton, KBR, Bechtel, Shell, all are now "foreign" based corporations who pay zero US taxes. That tax burden has been shifted to the consumer. Thats you and me. Meanwhile, my rent is up, food prices are through the roof, power has tripled. My bank charges me $7 a month just to keep an account there. I havent seen a penny increase in my wages in 15 years and my taxes are UP. I now pay about 30% including all state taxes. While the Billionares get a free ride. Socialism is just dandy for the Billionaires and multi-hundred millionaires.

I'm sorry man, but before Reagan became president, this country was doing pretty damn well for itself. Now, we're back to what it was in the 1920's. The bank run of last september nearly caused the total collapse of the economy. Slow and steady is the way to run a national economy. Not this play now, pay later system we have in place. The only people benefitting from that are the Donald Trumps and Dick Cheneys and George Bushs of the world.
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When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. -Sinclair Lewis


"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. - Thomas Jefferson

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Post by PnDsCm » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:14 am

Speaking of play now pay later, don't you have to admit that the Keynesian bullshit that the dems are going to pass in congress is a crock of shit? Almost as ridiculous as the TARP and the rest of the cash the fed turned over to insolvent banks.

I cannot believe that they are going to allow the same guys who ripped us off to begin with do it again. Based on their record it's hard to believe that the Wall st. execs are really the best and the brightest, but based on their ability to get the sheep in this country to turn over the sum of their future productivity I guess maybe they are!
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Post by 4G » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:45 am

BigHurknFrontman wrote:Not to burst your bubble or anything, but I don't recall Oprah's enterprise going down the toilet by way of her own mis-management, only to JACK the taxpayers out of even more money to make sure her enterprise didn't actually swirl down the pipe.

Corporate CEOs are a target because their behavior warrants the fucking crosshairs... not because they're rich.
I was just saying that it is easy for everyone to say tax the hell out of these people, when there are more people who make over 10 million outside of just CEO's.
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Post by 4G » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:57 am

DeathFrogg wrote:Why is it crazy? $10 million a year, - 70% on taxes, and you still make $3 million.

Besides, name one musician or actor thats come out as new in the last ten years thats making that kind of money.


There are plenty of actors. Not sure about musicians as it is not as widely publicized.

Heath Ledger was worth around 30 million when he died, Shia LaBeouf is making millions now, Seinfeld made over a million per episode etc. Hollywood has no issues handing out a ton of money. (Oprah, Letterman, Leno, the list goes on and on) I am sure with some research you would find musicians that also make a ton. Most obviously the older ones like Madonna, the Stones, McCartney etc. Even Metallica made a ton.

Also to say that only came out as new in the last 10 years is misleading. How many of these CEOs made that make this kind of money started in the industry less than 10 years ago?

Nevermind the 20 year old millionaires in sports.
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Post by Jonathan » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:12 am

I'm all for being fair. But 70% is pretty much crazy.

If I had 10Mil I'd ensure that my children, and my children's children are brought up well fed, well educated. I'd be creating a security net not just for my children, or my children's children, but the future of all of my family (sister, her kids, her kids' kids, my mom, etc). I'd be giving them (based on that 10mil) the best opportunity to become great, influencial people that could help shape the future of the world into a better place. And that's just what I'd do for my family.

Don't hate the rich for being rich. There are people that deserve their money and there are people who do great things with their money. The gov has got NO right in taking a percentage that is more than mine.

The problem is corruption. Not all millionairres are corrupt and taxing them 70% is crazy. That's like removing the whole welfare program because many abuse it.
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Post by 4G » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:33 am

DeathFrogg wrote: The only people benefitting from that are the Donald Trumps and Dick Cheneys and George Bushs of the world.
There are no shortage of filthy stinking rich liberals either. I would bet money there are even more of them than conservatives by a 2:1 margin at least. So lets call a spade a spade.

Instead of being jealous of rich people, do something to improve your situation. I plan to be in the top 1% one day. That may never happen, but I will still give it a shot.
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Post by derek666 » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:41 pm

DeathFrogg wrote: I'm sorry man, but before Reagan became president, this country was doing pretty damn well for itself.
Nixon, Ford and Carter years were pretty fucked!!! 21% interest on home loans?? Inflation soaring, fuel shortages blah blah. Carter is better at being an ex pres then he was as pres!!

I will totally agree with the others on here, 70% tax is pretty god damn insane!

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Post by Blonde leading the blonde » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:06 pm

I think the problem you run into is when you try to swing hard from one extreme to another. Some people who earn ridiculous salaries are going to need them -- people in hard contact sports will likely need them to pay for medical bills down the road, for example. A flat tax doesn't work, because we do want to encourage some types of focused spending. It makes far more sense to alter and simplify the current system. Having a sliding scale up to a point and then leaving it flat from that point up makes some sense, and having some pretty standard deductions that everyone can get in on at levels that match their means, but not so many that you need an army of tax lawyers to file each year. Personally, I think the whole existing system should be flushed and written from scratch.

I will say this, though -- If I make $25K/year and you make $100K per year, it is a no brainer that more of my income goes towards true and absolute necessities than yours. Taxing the "haves" at a greater % than the "have nots" just makes sense, but can be taken too far like anything else. I'll say this, too, if you're making the big bucks off our country because of the systems we have in place, and you're moving your assets off shore to avoid paying taxes, and continuing to use the infrastructure those taxes pay for, you're basically just shoving your responsibilities off onto someone else who doesn't have the means to do what you're doing, much less pay for your share of the infrastructure. To me, it's other side of the same coin, only instead of asking people who make millions to foot the majority of the bill, it's asking folks who don't make that much to foot it. It pretty much pisses me off.

For my part, I assume that since I use the roads, drink the water, went to the schools, etc., I have a responsibility to pay my reasonable share, and taxes don't piss me off. Government wasting my money does, but that's a whole other subject.
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Post by 4G » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:46 pm

Blonde leading the blonde wrote: I will say this, though -- If I make $25K/year and you make $100K per year, it is a no brainer that more of my income goes towards true and absolute necessities than yours.
If you make 25k and pay 20% in taxes and I make 100k and pay 20% in taxes, I am still paying a lot more than you are. (5k vs 20k) so it isn't like a flat tax means I pay the same amount, just the same percentage. So more of my money goes to things like schools and roads and everything else you use and enjoy.
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Post by 4G » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:50 pm

Blonde leading the blonde wrote:To me, it's other side of the same coin, only instead of asking people who make millions to foot the majority of the bill, it's asking folks who don't make that much to foot it. It pretty much pisses me off.
I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong, but I beleive I read a little while back that the top 10% of the earners pay over 60% of the taxes. So not sure I agree with what you are saying.
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Post by The Green Manalishi » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:21 pm

Selective Taxing.

Didn't we choose to make the people famous with gadzillin's like OPRAH,
Metallica,
Ray whats-his-face on Teh Defuncked Sonics before some other rich bungsniffer, by the way,the coffee pounding public made ungodly rich.
Rich.
There's rich and their is Wealth Oddity. So much greenbacks that they git lil folders every so often wif columns of digits. All in Black.

CEO's on the other hand, aren't they like voted in by a Board of Directors, like the good 'ol bad boys/girls in advantage of control and they probably get some sorta kick back goin around for supporting the most anti-christ of em all?

That's how I thought it worked. School me froggeh.....

Tax the hell outta those evil corporate jackholes,
and leave the ones we choose to kick down to, like Carlos Mencia, The Crue, etc. non-taxed so much.

Here's to the killah music, entertainment, and damn good bustin times I'll pay for,

when the economy picks up.

Anyone notice gas jumped up 12 cents in the last few weeks.

Peaaaaace.
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Post by derek666 » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:15 pm

The Green Manalishi wrote:Selective Taxing.

Didn't we choose to make the people famous with gadzillin's like OPRAH,
Metallica,
Ray whats-his-face on Teh Defuncked Sonics before some other rich bungsniffer, by the way,the coffee pounding public made ungodly rich.
Rich.
There's rich and their is Wealth Oddity. So much greenbacks that they git lil folders every so often wif columns of digits. All in Black.

CEO's on the other hand, aren't they like voted in by a Board of Directors, like the good 'ol bad boys/girls in advantage of control and they probably get some sorta kick back goin around for supporting the most anti-christ of em all?

That's how I thought it worked. School me froggeh.....

Tax the hell outta those evil corporate jackholes,
and leave the ones we choose to kick down to, like Carlos Mencia, The Crue, etc. non-taxed so much.

Here's to the killah music, entertainment, and damn good bustin times I'll pay for,

when the economy picks up.

Anyone notice gas jumped up 12 cents in the last few weeks.

Peaaaaace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_executive_officer

Not hard to look up. Guess it also depends on how the company/ business started also, Bill Gates comes to mind. He created microsoft and is the ceo of that monster ball of shit.

So if you started a business, it takes off and it expands like wildfire, you are the CEO of said company, you would be willing to have big government come and take 70% of your money?? Just curious. Or even more since you would be considered one of those " evil corporate jackholes" as you say?


and 4G, your math is pretty damn accurate and a flat tax would make perfect sense!! Just to throw an athlete out there in this, A-roid makes $30,000,000 base salary a year, 10% of that would be $3,000,000 in taxes. Figure in the rest of all those over paid fucks, along with all the other rich fuck's and thats a whole shitpot of tax loot coming in. How would it be a bad thing for a straight flat tax of 10% on everyones income?


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Post by The Green Manalishi » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:48 pm

Naw. Its not in the cards for me to start a business...

And yes, the Corporate jackholes of Enron, GM, Morgan Stanley Dean Whitter, etc. etc. etc.

Just because your a Own a Corp, CEO, whatevah, does't MEAN you have to be a jackhole.

Case and point: Eastside Bill, with his Foundation, he's given back more than Eron ripped off.
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Post by soundguy » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:30 am

We ALREADY have working flat tax systems all over the place.

Although the exact rate varies from one jurisdiction to another, within the same city the owner of a $50k single-wide on a tiny lot pays exactly the same PERCENTAGE as the guy who owns a $10m mini-mansion on 5 acres.

When I go buy a candy bar at 7-11, I pay exactly the same sales tax PERCENTAGE as a guy buying a 60" plasma TV at BestBuy.

The reason it works is that there is no sliding scale and no deductions. You own property, you pay the tax or they take your property. You buy retail, you pay the tax or you don't complete the transaction.

Eliminating graduated income tax brackets and ALL deductions would eliminate 75% of the IRS itself, saving billions of tax dollars wasted every year just running the fucking thing. Working stiffs would not have to file anything because their 10% would come off the top every payday like it does now. Small businesses and corporations would just pay quarterly like they do now, except with no deductions to fuck around with, EVERYONE can file the short form and be done with it.

10% not enough? Then use 12% or 15% or 20%. It doesn't matter as long as everyone pays the same. Think it hurts the poor? There's no way the current entitlement systems are going away any time soon, so just give them their 10% back in food stamps or heating credits or something. It doesn't matter. At the low end of the scale, the amount they'd be paying would be trivial anyway, but making them pay just like everyone else creates powerful symbolism and psychologically elevates them to the same level as the middle class and the filthy rich - everyone pays their fair share, like EQUALS. I believe there was something about equality in the declaration of independence, wasn't there?
[b]Patrick[/b]

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