The issue of attendance at your shows (theoretical solution inside)
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The issue of attendance at your shows (theoretical solution inside)
The answer isn't "clubs need to start promoting better", and it isn't "the scene is dead", nor is it "that darn no-smoking law".
It's simple:
Western Washingtons fans of metal aren't being reached by local bands.
Western Washingtons fans of metal don't know of, or feel the need to go out of their way to find, local metal bands.
This area has TONS of citizens that listen to Cannibal Corpse, Obituary, Sepultura, etc... and when their favorite metal band comes to town... they buy tickets for $25 to go see them.
Here's the solution:
Figure out a way to reach fans of metal, that are NOT in bands or friends of bands. If you can figure that one out, you'll pack your shows.
- Put up advertisements of your merch (albums/shows) at local record stores, clubs.
- Stand outside of national shows and hand out glossy fliers with your ads (cd, merch, shows) to fans in line.
- Buy up peek hour ad slots on radio programs
- Buy up 1/2 to full page ads in the Stranger, Seattle Weekly, etc.
- When you get on National act shows, don't be lazy... set up a booth, or work the crowd like a pimp trying to sell your shit.
If you do the above relentlessly, I'll bet you $5 that you'll start to see a drastic change in turnout to your shows. And thusly, sales in your band's product.
It's simple:
Western Washingtons fans of metal aren't being reached by local bands.
Western Washingtons fans of metal don't know of, or feel the need to go out of their way to find, local metal bands.
This area has TONS of citizens that listen to Cannibal Corpse, Obituary, Sepultura, etc... and when their favorite metal band comes to town... they buy tickets for $25 to go see them.
Here's the solution:
Figure out a way to reach fans of metal, that are NOT in bands or friends of bands. If you can figure that one out, you'll pack your shows.
- Put up advertisements of your merch (albums/shows) at local record stores, clubs.
- Stand outside of national shows and hand out glossy fliers with your ads (cd, merch, shows) to fans in line.
- Buy up peek hour ad slots on radio programs
- Buy up 1/2 to full page ads in the Stranger, Seattle Weekly, etc.
- When you get on National act shows, don't be lazy... set up a booth, or work the crowd like a pimp trying to sell your shit.
If you do the above relentlessly, I'll bet you $5 that you'll start to see a drastic change in turnout to your shows. And thusly, sales in your band's product.
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- Cardboardurinal
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....
It isn't entirely true...there are bands (in this case, I am referring to Hunab Ku) out there that do just that, and you (and as per Luke) saw first hand that they unfortunately don't draw all that well.
I would like to believe that the people just don't know of the local bands, but that would be lying. There are lots of people who have seen my band (Finntroll show), Vulgarizer (Nile show), Drown Mary, Drawn and Quartered, Gravenloch, etc...but the number of people these bands are able to draw are pretty dismal. And I don't think it can be laid entirely on lack of work from the bands. I have had people come up to me and tell me that they think we are awesome...then I never see them again, unless it is a national act show.
Over the past couple months I have been working on getting Evangelist's name out to the public. We are fortunate enough to have been placed on the Candlemass bill, and we have been trying to sell tickets for the show. I have talked with at least a hundred people (both in person and over the internet) and it is difficult to get people to commit to coming to the show...even if they like Candlemass and/or Daylight Dies (these are the people that I have been targeting).
While this probably is construed as whining...which it probably is on some level...it is more about addressing the problems that we have in Seattle. I look around and see 4-5 different cliques that bands seperate themselves into, and I don't mean hardcore, metal, punk scenes. What I mean is that there are metal bands who will never play certain venues. There are bands that won't play with certain bands who are not too far removed from the other band. So naturally the people who come out to shows get split into said cliques.
I have seen, and heard of, national acts coming through Seattle and playing for a handful of people just like some of the local bands do. You mentioned bands like Obituary, Cannibal Corpse, and Sepultura but realistically, these bands should be playing bigger venues than El Corazon or Studio 7. The Arch Enemy/Dark Tranquillity show was moved from Showbox to El Corazon. I saw The Dillinger Escape Plan play a packed Showbox, and last time it was a 3/4 full El Corazon. When I see things like this, it is difficult for me to look at the bands for all the fault. What I see is a lack of work from the promoters, too high of ticket prices, and too many local bands on some bills. I also don't see a lot of enthusiasm from within Seattle about going to shows, with of course the exception of the regular show attendees.
I would like to think that your suggestions would work, (and my band has discussed a number of them) so I guess this would be my cynical pessimissitic nature shining through doubting that this would work all that well.
I think in the end what the biggest problem is that there are so many bands out there and we are all seperating ourselves off from all of them due to ideological differences. That is what I am working on fixing with Evangelist. We are reaching out to bands from outside our normal peers that we regularly play with.
I would like to believe that the people just don't know of the local bands, but that would be lying. There are lots of people who have seen my band (Finntroll show), Vulgarizer (Nile show), Drown Mary, Drawn and Quartered, Gravenloch, etc...but the number of people these bands are able to draw are pretty dismal. And I don't think it can be laid entirely on lack of work from the bands. I have had people come up to me and tell me that they think we are awesome...then I never see them again, unless it is a national act show.
Over the past couple months I have been working on getting Evangelist's name out to the public. We are fortunate enough to have been placed on the Candlemass bill, and we have been trying to sell tickets for the show. I have talked with at least a hundred people (both in person and over the internet) and it is difficult to get people to commit to coming to the show...even if they like Candlemass and/or Daylight Dies (these are the people that I have been targeting).
While this probably is construed as whining...which it probably is on some level...it is more about addressing the problems that we have in Seattle. I look around and see 4-5 different cliques that bands seperate themselves into, and I don't mean hardcore, metal, punk scenes. What I mean is that there are metal bands who will never play certain venues. There are bands that won't play with certain bands who are not too far removed from the other band. So naturally the people who come out to shows get split into said cliques.
I have seen, and heard of, national acts coming through Seattle and playing for a handful of people just like some of the local bands do. You mentioned bands like Obituary, Cannibal Corpse, and Sepultura but realistically, these bands should be playing bigger venues than El Corazon or Studio 7. The Arch Enemy/Dark Tranquillity show was moved from Showbox to El Corazon. I saw The Dillinger Escape Plan play a packed Showbox, and last time it was a 3/4 full El Corazon. When I see things like this, it is difficult for me to look at the bands for all the fault. What I see is a lack of work from the promoters, too high of ticket prices, and too many local bands on some bills. I also don't see a lot of enthusiasm from within Seattle about going to shows, with of course the exception of the regular show attendees.
I would like to think that your suggestions would work, (and my band has discussed a number of them) so I guess this would be my cynical pessimissitic nature shining through doubting that this would work all that well.
I think in the end what the biggest problem is that there are so many bands out there and we are all seperating ourselves off from all of them due to ideological differences. That is what I am working on fixing with Evangelist. We are reaching out to bands from outside our normal peers that we regularly play with.
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Yeah, the above is no guarantee.
There are multiple factors that go into why people don't go to shows and why people who do go to a show, say they dig you, then not go to future shows.
- fans of metal probably aren't as dedicated to my band as I am. I'll be at all of my shows, but someone who really likes us, will go to maybe one or two of my shows a year.
- My own band hasn't done the above that I listed. Partly because of extreme laziness, the other is we've been waiting to make and release a real product to get behind (our first full length album)
As for cliques. Of course bands stick together. I know of some that stay within their comfort zone. I know some that will play with anyone. Speaking for my own band, we've been playing local shows with everyone for the past 4+ years and frankly, are pretty bored with it. As you get older, or stay in the same town with the same band for a long time, you get to a point where you either get lazy and just take a show here and there OR you don't play many shows (cept for nationals) and prepare your ass off for getting out of town and "making it".
Fans that I know don't live and breathe for metal music. They have jobs that are taxing physically and are too tired or too broke to go one show a weekend, even if it's their favorite local band. And ESPECIALLY if that band is playing every weekend.
What I was saying to people on Friday night was, it was a hot day, the first of the year AND a Friday. Most people are going to a lake, beach, bbq rather than paying money to be in a hot sweaty and loud club to see bands they can see on rainy days.
Hunab has many factors why there weren't many there, or why promotions aren't doing it. I won't get into that, but a lot of it is having "luck", good or bad, shit happens.
Now, my own personal philosphy when it comes to a band (which we're just starting to do now) is take every action possible. What I listed above is something we will do. Push as hard as you can, work as hard as you can making a good product. If at the end you have nothing to show for it... it's not because you didn't try. On the other side of that is, if you don't do the above, you can not say that you really tried.
And PS, it's not whining. Discussing these topics is what these boards are good for....
There are multiple factors that go into why people don't go to shows and why people who do go to a show, say they dig you, then not go to future shows.
- fans of metal probably aren't as dedicated to my band as I am. I'll be at all of my shows, but someone who really likes us, will go to maybe one or two of my shows a year.
- My own band hasn't done the above that I listed. Partly because of extreme laziness, the other is we've been waiting to make and release a real product to get behind (our first full length album)
As for cliques. Of course bands stick together. I know of some that stay within their comfort zone. I know some that will play with anyone. Speaking for my own band, we've been playing local shows with everyone for the past 4+ years and frankly, are pretty bored with it. As you get older, or stay in the same town with the same band for a long time, you get to a point where you either get lazy and just take a show here and there OR you don't play many shows (cept for nationals) and prepare your ass off for getting out of town and "making it".
Fans that I know don't live and breathe for metal music. They have jobs that are taxing physically and are too tired or too broke to go one show a weekend, even if it's their favorite local band. And ESPECIALLY if that band is playing every weekend.
What I was saying to people on Friday night was, it was a hot day, the first of the year AND a Friday. Most people are going to a lake, beach, bbq rather than paying money to be in a hot sweaty and loud club to see bands they can see on rainy days.
Hunab has many factors why there weren't many there, or why promotions aren't doing it. I won't get into that, but a lot of it is having "luck", good or bad, shit happens.
Now, my own personal philosphy when it comes to a band (which we're just starting to do now) is take every action possible. What I listed above is something we will do. Push as hard as you can, work as hard as you can making a good product. If at the end you have nothing to show for it... it's not because you didn't try. On the other side of that is, if you don't do the above, you can not say that you really tried.
And PS, it's not whining. Discussing these topics is what these boards are good for....
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- Freak Bassman
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I know personally I try to promote the shit out of shows that my band plays, the issue is that most people I know either live in Seattle and north or Olympia and south, so when my band plays at a place like Maggie O'Toole's, those people don't want to drive to Lakewood on a Wednesday or Saturday night.
Sometimes it's not how hard you promote, it's just the unfortunate where you're playing. I know tons of people that won't see a show at El Corazon because of the big pole in the middle of the stage, or someone won't go to Hell's Kitchen because they got into a fight with the staff or something like that.
Sometimes it's not how hard you promote, it's just the unfortunate where you're playing. I know tons of people that won't see a show at El Corazon because of the big pole in the middle of the stage, or someone won't go to Hell's Kitchen because they got into a fight with the staff or something like that.
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- Cardboardurinal
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...
I am the vocalist for Evangelist.
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- imperator_Drakul
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Alot of people are lazy when it comes to that shit. I myself know some local people who claim to be 'diehards' of extreme metal, yet they won't come to a single one of our shows, even when they say they will. I might sound a little cliche, but myspace does help...I'm not saying you should get onto one of those pathetic whoretrains, just browse, look at local people who are into metal, add them and just ask them to check you out in the explanation box, and you'll see what happens. We actually got some people in attendence through that. And yeah, whore your shit at shows, there's people out there who always have to buy something, and if you're shit seems a little more than interesting to them (talk it up if you will), they'll get it.
and A little OT, Jonathan, is an answer on the show i want you guys to headline and tear up possible by the weekend? let me know yo
and A little OT, Jonathan, is an answer on the show i want you guys to headline and tear up possible by the weekend? let me know yo
Yeah I'll talk with them this week. I haven't been to practice in the last 2 or 3 weeks because I'm moving.imperator_Drakul wrote: and A little OT, Jonathan, is an answer on the show i want you guys to headline and tear up possible by the weekend? let me know yo
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- AndrogynousCharade
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Another possible explanation:
your band sucks.
There is really no huge reasoning behind issues like bad turnouts other than that really. Promotion definitely helps but if you play interesting and unique music people will get the buzz on you and try to make it out at some point.
Other than that, if you're a metal band and don't have a huge local hype yet.. 21+ shows are a bad idea unless you're sharing the stage with already established bands. 4 years ago I remember every local all ages Sleep Terror show was rad. Rad rad. Lots of kids, lots of merch sold and every second between songs filled with screams and cheers. Other than the occasional MMM, the 21 up gigs were horrendous and almost a waste of time. It's all about kids and getting a local buzz going around.
your band sucks.
There is really no huge reasoning behind issues like bad turnouts other than that really. Promotion definitely helps but if you play interesting and unique music people will get the buzz on you and try to make it out at some point.
Other than that, if you're a metal band and don't have a huge local hype yet.. 21+ shows are a bad idea unless you're sharing the stage with already established bands. 4 years ago I remember every local all ages Sleep Terror show was rad. Rad rad. Lots of kids, lots of merch sold and every second between songs filled with screams and cheers. Other than the occasional MMM, the 21 up gigs were horrendous and almost a waste of time. It's all about kids and getting a local buzz going around.
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- Cardboardurinal
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....
I wish it were that simple, Luke, it really would tell certain bands that it isn't worth their time. Unfortunately, it isn't that simple.
There are a lot of really shitty bands in Seattle that draw much better than the good ones. That is another example that hurts your analysis of band draw.
How do you explain 30 people showing up to the show that you guys played? I think that Hunab Ku plays enough shows (and play interesting enough music) for people to know who they are and like what they do...and Drown Mary has had enough exposure to draw people. And the fact that you had Otep to inform people of the show says something as well.
There are a lot of really shitty bands in Seattle that draw much better than the good ones. That is another example that hurts your analysis of band draw.
How do you explain 30 people showing up to the show that you guys played? I think that Hunab Ku plays enough shows (and play interesting enough music) for people to know who they are and like what they do...and Drown Mary has had enough exposure to draw people. And the fact that you had Otep to inform people of the show says something as well.
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- AndrogynousCharade
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Cardboardurinal wrote:I wish it were that simple, Luke, it really would tell certain bands that it isn't worth their time. Unfortunately, it isn't that simple.
There are a lot of really shitty bands in Seattle that draw much better than the good ones. That is another example that hurts your analysis of band draw.
How do you explain 30 people showing up to the show that you guys played? I think that Hunab Ku plays enough shows (and play interesting enough music) for people to know who they are and like what they do...and Drown Mary has had enough exposure to draw people. And the fact that you had Otep to inform people of the show says something as well.
Well its hard to judge anything based on that show for the fact that the headlining band and entire touring package dropped off last minute. Most of the regular Hunab fanatics I've seen didn't show up because they still thought Otep were playing which meant $15+ tickets just to get in and they only want to see us. And in addition to that, all the Otep fans who turned in their tickets for refunds and didn't attend the show probably have never heard of us outside their Korn/Evanescence collection so it was gonna be fucked from the start in terms of the draw.
I agree with you about a lot of sucky bands getting good draws. Especially in the hardcore/metalcore scene. I won't even bother listing any because there are so many locally and especially nationally.
On any note, I wouldn't be playing in this band if I didn't see huge potential and had a love for the style of this music and some of these songs. However, there is a lot of work that needs to be done in this band. Some ''things'' need to be cleaned up in the mix. Guitars are an obvious starting point now that I joined the team.
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The Brain DeadClark Chaos wrote:So who are you jamming with now a days Luke?
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Not that anyone gives a crap, but I’ll throw in my 2 cents as a paying local metal fan.Cardboardurinal wrote:I wish it were that simple, Luke, it really would tell certain bands that it isn't worth their time. Unfortunately, it isn't that simple.
There are a lot of really shitty bands in Seattle that draw much better than the good ones. That is another example that hurts your analysis of band draw.
How do you explain 30 people showing up to the show that you guys played? I think that Hunab Ku plays enough shows (and play interesting enough music) for people to know who they are and like what they do...and Drown Mary has had enough exposure to draw people. And the fact that you had Otep to inform people of the show says something as well.
There are also a few other factors that I consider when deciding what shows to attend. One is financial, certainly. There have been a lot of cool national shows this spring/summer. My slate so far this Spring:
Barefoot Barnacle/Hunab Ku
Dillinger Escape Plan
Ministry/Meshuggah
Arch Enemy/DT
Dethklok
At The Gates
And that’s just metal. I will probably shoehorn in Supersuckers/RHH and Rancid/LTJ with the wife as well.
So some shows will inevitably get caught up in the numbers game. I really dig Hunab Ku, and although I look forward to hear their new efforts with Luke, I just saw them in April, and could care less about Otep. I like Evangelist, and probably would have gone to Candlemass, but I already had tix for Arch Enemy (which was packed last night, it appeared to me that it ended up with a better turn-out than Dillinger) when I heard about the show, and 2 consecutive midweek shows is too much time away from the family, for me at least. And midweek shows are a pain in my ass. I’ll do it if I REALLY want to see a band, or if the bill has a lot of acts I haven’t seen a la Summer Slaughter, but it’s definitely a strike against when I’m deciding what shows to check out. I realize I don’t necessarily represent the views of the average fan, but there you go.
Yet despite the fact that I am out spending my hard-earned in the metal marketplace, one could make the argument that I'm doing little to support the local scene. Local show-wise, I will be making an effort to get out to the June 13th I ROT/Gravenloch show, but that will probably be about it for me in the near term.
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Yeppers. Apply that to everyone and you'll get the sporadic turnouts. People have lives.
The last couple months I've been so busy with studio stuff, sickness and moving (finished this coming saturday) that I haven't had the time, money or energy to do much of anything 'cept for pack, record, sleep. I'm sure almost everyone's lives are like that. = sporadic turnouts.
The last couple months I've been so busy with studio stuff, sickness and moving (finished this coming saturday) that I haven't had the time, money or energy to do much of anything 'cept for pack, record, sleep. I'm sure almost everyone's lives are like that. = sporadic turnouts.
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Local bands have good turn outs because either there music offers something that makes people spend money to see or listen to. Or because the members of the local bands suck a lot of dick trying to get people to be fans.
In other words, if a local band doesnt have a good turn out it is usually because they suck balls or they dont know how to kiss ass to people in the local scene or what ever needs to be done.
For example, when I was in Expiration Date. Most of the people that went to there shows where just a bunch of drunks that banged there heads to load and fast music. Or they where people in other bands that only spent time to see them to try and buddy up with them in hopes of having them going to there shows or maybee getting them on there shows. Put it this way, I played some pretty big shows with them and I about 90% of it wasnt even about the art of the music.
In other words, if a local band doesnt have a good turn out it is usually because they suck balls or they dont know how to kiss ass to people in the local scene or what ever needs to be done.
For example, when I was in Expiration Date. Most of the people that went to there shows where just a bunch of drunks that banged there heads to load and fast music. Or they where people in other bands that only spent time to see them to try and buddy up with them in hopes of having them going to there shows or maybee getting them on there shows. Put it this way, I played some pretty big shows with them and I about 90% of it wasnt even about the art of the music.
- MaggotExistence
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Your all posers, trying to make money off extreme metal. Bobby...you think Evangelisp is going to someday open for slipknot, and every local kid in seattle will pack your shows, and you can quit whatever job you have to be the lengendary seattle metal gods who made it happen through scene unity and team effort? Dude...you play in a death metal band. And you do it because your a metal nerd. Keep your job.
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- Cardboardurinal
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...
I don't have a job, I need this band...!!!
Besides, I would rather open for...Metallica.
Besides, I would rather open for...Metallica.
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