Hammer down on the elite!!!

[derek666]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29003620

[Evil Red]

Good.

[PnDsCm]

We're saved!!! Yay!

[Evil Red]

It must be awful for them to have to scrimp by on a 500 grand.

[Six6VI]

Oh yeah, feel the burn. Suddenly my financial problems don't seem so bad anymore.

Lee

[derek666]

Them bastards only taking in 500 grand is better then the fucking umpteen millions they have been pocketing!!! The bullshit bailouts should not have happened in the first place, should have let the bastards suffer for their blundering ways instead of rewarding them with billions!

[DeathFrogg]

Them bastards only taking in 500 grand is better then the fucking umpteen millions they have been pocketing!!! The bullshit bailouts should not have happened in the first place, should have let the bastards suffer for their blundering ways instead of rewarding them with billions!

What should have happened is the top tax rate being raised to 70-80%.

They stripmined the Treasury and manufactured false moneys out of thin air, then they get to party on the patio with more tax money.

Some of these banks leveraged themselves in over 100-1, then bundled and sold off those debts to third parties, who then bundled all those bundles into bigger bundles and sold those off to fourth parties like smaller countries governments. Privatise the profits, and socialize the losses.

Some of these assholes make $100 million a year, for shoving numbers around in a computer, and LOSING IT.

The fractional reserve system.

If you're making more than $10 million a year, you should be paying at least 70% of your income in taxes. Most other civilized nations do exactly this. Go to Germany, Italy, France or Japan, and they tend to have rather tidy and well organized National systems such as mass rail transportation and public schools. There are downsides to that of course, those societies tend to be rather rigid in how they pigeonhole people, they tend to do that early and steer people to schools that would supposidly increase their talents. Its difficult to bring a whole new generation into their discovery phase when they're limited in their options as young adults.

But how is that different from letting private companies do the same thing? It seems to me that a socioeconomic system should let the brightest talents shine without burdening them with the wealth pressure so much. BUY this, Buy THAT. Oh yer just not a REAL AMERICAN unless you drive THIS CAR. It's all bullshit. Dangling that well hooked worm in front of the stupid fishies. It's just another form of slavery.

But folks do all that on credit. They borrow the money from organizations, who have borrowed that money to loan them from other organizations, who then took all those debts and sold them to themselves at a huge profit, then claim the sale as a loss and write it off on their taxes.

Its crazy.

More later, this rant ain't over.

[BigHurknFrontman]

Preach, brotha man!!!!!

[skipp666]

*Waves to everyone*

I'm going to the Arcade!

[The Green Manalishi]

hMM.
Toads will fly before we have a tidy, fair to all system that truly takes care of itself.
Most Euro's are in a socialist environment and the governmental climate for most Americans comfort zone doesn't include socialism. Which has it plus and minuses, the Minuses is America could not sing the praises of Freedom, etc. that the "Founding Fathers" put forth.
Americans would just never go for it.

Don't get me wrong frogster, I agree one big bail out with ya, we are just in a rock an a hard place. A very sharp rock.

I can't even deal with it anymore.
I'm so pissed off.
I want a George Dubya Pinata. Seriously. With like little airline bottles of booze inside.
And no blindfold.

[DeathFrogg]

My apologies in advance for the eye-watering wall of text. But there really isn't any other way to spell it out right.

I've read quite a few things about this over the last several months. One of the justifications for the massive "bailouts" that have occurred over the last several years is the fact that Countries such as Iceland, Ireland, Chile, Brazil and China were the suckers that bought into the derivatives market and want that money back. The not-so-public justification thats being whispered about the dark side, is that there are maybe 60 countries that could legally declare war on the United States, and have a real justification for doing so. The only thing preventing them from doing this is the fact that they don't have the military ability or the economic wherewithall to support such a conflict.

Maybe this is what the "War on Terror" is really all about?

The bailouts, that massive cash handover to the private banks is to buy out that massive $20-$25 Trillion (yes, with a fucking "T") worth of phoney securities that they sold to those foreign governments and banks to avoid paying taxes on it here at home. They bundled all those mortgages and credit card debts and shit into bigger bundles (derivatives) and sold them to any sucker they could find. Including other branches or subsidaries of their own transnational banks in foreign countries.

The governments in those countries are a teensey bit pissed off about that right now. They got flim flammed, they know they did, and for several of these countries the debt equals several decades of their entire national economic output to repay. Real debt that they didn't even start to realize existed untill about two years ago. What they were told that they were buying into the U.S. bond markets. They weren't told that all they were buying was American debts.

One example: Iceland, is in total economic collapse right now. There are massive protests and near riots there every day. Just a year ago, Iceland was the "fastest growing economy in the world". The corporatist propaganda that was being spread around at the time was that it was a major success story in the greater financial markets. But the shit hit the fan. The derivatives, those bundled debts, were converted into bonds that the giant national banks could trade with and borrow/issue currency against. Backed by the "Full faith and credit" of the United States Government. THAT is why the "bailouts" are happening. Since Reagan was President, the corporations have been able to issue bonds through the US Government, backed by the US Taxpayer. Reagan, Bush Sr., Greenspan, Cheney, Gramm and other national-corporatists wrote the laws that removed the barriers for currency and stock trading by savings banks. The US government would buy those large corporate debts and repackage them into Bond Derivatives, and sell them off on the international currency markets.

All nice and legal. All backed by the "Full Faith and Credit" of the United States.

Iceland bought into that system almost totally. They now have literally no government in charge of the country. Unemployment, a year ago was about 2%, now it is up almost 50% and rising. Their national currency is totally worthless on the world market. What that means is, they can no longer pay for imports. Thats fuels, raw materials, foodstuffs etc. For any country in that situation, thats bad juju. For a little country like Iceland, thats like having its dick cut off and its ass sewed shut.

Ireland is almost in the same boat. Chile' is now threatening to dump all its U.S. currency holdings onto the open market, which would collapse the Dollar. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Nigeria, Venezuela and even Mexico are moving towards switching to the Euro as the base currency for their international trade. which would also collapse the Dollar.

Those are all major oil suppliers to the U.S. market. China is nearly monopolizing the cheap export market worldwide, with American owned factories pumping out the goods. Under current US tax law, money that an American company makes overseas is not taxed untill that money is brought into the United States. So, they just leave it in foreign banks and invest it from there. Its that giant sucking sound we've all been wondering about. The money is going out, and not coming back. There is no system at all to verify whether or not they are actually keeping the money elsewhere, its childs play to launder it back into the country, when they also own the largest banks in the world.

The credit industry is healthy. It really is. The problem is, the banks are not issuing new credit so much. Right now, a person with a decent paying job can still get a pretty reasonable market rate mortgage. But when you throw nearly 5 million people out of work, there isn't much of a market for those. Detroit is nearly a ghost town. One can buy a 5 bedroom house there for $2000. Other cities like Flint, Pittsburgh, Philiadelphia and Baltimore are now practically war zones.

And who is it that gets the blame? The talking heads and corporatist politicians lay the blame squarely on the poor people who had the temerity to rely on the only system they were allowed to use. They blame the workers for the mess. They blame the American Taxpayer for borrowing too much money. When at the same time, they worked the system to make sure they didn't actually have to pay people enough to avoid having to use credit. They build massive factories in places like Saipan and American Samoa and China and the Phillipines, Then are laying you off and blaming you for your unemployment, calling the American worker "lazy" and "inefficient" and its your own damn lazyness and lacadaisical attitude towards work thats causing your problems. That shit is on Fox Spews every fucking day. Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity and Micheal Medved say that shit nearly every day in some form.


Isn't capitalism wonderful?

[derek666]

Iceland may be going bankrupt but unemployment is at 4.8% and was expected to rise to 6.4 - 6.9%
http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/01 ... t-figures/

I, amazingly enough, agree with ya DF. ALL corporate politicians, not just the ones from one side or the other need to be held accountable for this bullshit!! Outsourcing jobs is another huge factor for breaking us here. My buddies wife lost her job at Basic Health of Wa. to outsourcing, along with way too many others who had been employed there for years.

Who the fuck really needs a $10 million paycheck to get by? fuck the bastards!!:headshot:

[DeathFrogg]

A pretty damn good article. on this subject.

And another.

[PnDsCm]

Don't worry about CEO salary caps:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... VLk.22AkLI

Goldman, JPMorgan Won’t Feel Effects of Executive-Salary Caps

By Matthew Benjamin and Christine Harper
More Photos/Details

Feb. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Executives at Goldman Sachs Group Inc., JPMorgan Chase & Co. and hundreds of financial institutions receiving federal aid aren’t likely to be affected by pay restrictions announced yesterday by President Barack Obama.

The rules, created in response to growing public anger about the record bonuses the financial industry doled out last year, will apply only to top executives at companies that need “exceptional” assistance in the future. The limits aren’t retroactive, meaning firms that have already taken government money won’t be subject to the restrictions unless they have to come back for more.

[PnDsCm]

Hey Frogg,

I think your analysis is pretty spot on as far as the way this is going to play out. Eventually the Treasury market is going to ge tits up when some of the major players say "No Mas" to the unending new issues of bonds. It should be interesting to see what happens when they do fund this bailout and the second half of the TARP. That's another 1.5 trillion worth of issues that they have to find buyers for.

I've been buying TBT for the last 6 months fully expecting an eventual crash. The trouble is, that even though it'll be a great trade when the bond market finally reacts, my dollars might not be worth so much in the face of an insolvent US Government!

My only complaint Mr. Frogg is that you see this as a partisan issue. I hold the Dems just as guilty as the GOP for this mess and I think the real line is drawn between the people who live in this country and the ones who "run" it. Fighting each other over who is at fault just provides a divide and conquer mechanism for the jackasses at the top.

Nonetheless, some day soon when it's time for torches and pitchforks we'll all be working together. This I believe.

Thank God for the Bank of Sealy.

[derek666]

Don't worry about CEO salary caps:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... VLk.22AkLI

God damnit, I thought it was going to be retroactive. and damnit, quit interupting with intelect, I like sounding like an imbred hillbilly republican and making DF look right al the time hahahaha

Both parties are at ABSOLUTE fault for this mess not just one or the other. Obama is NOT the savior too many people think he is, he is another pawn for the elite! One day, people will have to realize this and shit will hit the fan and the revolutionary war part 2 will begin! People have to be getting tired of being fucked over?!

[The Green Manalishi]

Yes to Frogger, Yes to the good Dr., and Yes to you Mr.derek666.

It is and will be us against them, I'm sure it already is with some.

In my job I see all nationalities. A bit surprised today when I saw an Icelander. Not very often, but now I can see why. Lots and lots of Saudis, Iranians, ect. coming over the Ocean....I think I'll start asking more question on how they view their own economy...a bit frightened now on what they think of ours.

Credit Unions should be untouchable right? Its supposedly supported by members...

Yes, Bank O' Beautyrest sounding pretty phat.

[derek666]

Yes to Frogger, Yes to the good Dr., and Yes to you Mr.derek666.

It is and will be us against them, I'm sure it already is with some.

In my job I see all nationalities. A bit surprised today when I saw an Icelander. Not very often, but now I can see why. Lots and lots of Saudis, Iranians, ect. coming over the Ocean....I think I'll start asking more question on how they view their own economy...a bit frightened now on what they think of ours.

Credit Unions should be untouchable right? Its supposedly supported by members...

Yes, Bank O' Beautyrest sounding pretty phat.

There are lots of Icelanders around here, I am a quarter and 3/4 Norwegian, so actually that would make me 100% Norwegian since Icelanders are Norwegian settlers. There are probably hundreds up in Ballard?!?!

[BigHurknFrontman]

there are lots of icelanders around here, i am a quarter and 3/4 norwegian, so actually that would make me 100% norwegian since icelanders are norwegian settlers. There are probably hundreds up in ballard?!?!

uff-da!

[derek666]

uff-da!

My damn grandpa andmomsay that all the damn time.

[DeathFrogg]

My only complaint Mr. Frogg is that you see this as a partisan issue. I hold the Dems just as guilty as the GOP for this mess and I think the real line is drawn between the people who live in this country and the ones who "run" it. Fighting each other over who is at fault just provides a divide and conquer mechanism for the jackasses at the top.

As a partisan issue, thats partly fair I suppose. What I have seen is the major difference between "Liberal" and "Conservative" is most how they treat the money that they have been voted into place to distribute.

"Conservatives". Talk to any capital cultist, Republican or Democrat, and their ONLY measure of a persons success in life is how much money and material that person has managed to hoard for themselves. Nothing else matters. There is a real religious cult attitude about capitalism for a lot of people. It doesn't matter how good a musician you are, or artist, or author or scientist. If you dont have the driving instinct to gather and hoard material wealth, you are a loser.

Watch the Fox Spews channel for a while, and you see a real deep obsession with money as its own reward, that Capitalism isn't just an economic system, its a fucking religion with these people. That an unfettered market system can solve all of societies issues. They see poverty as totally self-inflicted and often make inferences to it being deserved somehow. Being caused by such things as having low morals or being poorly educated. There is a very real perception that poor people in general are just kinda stupid.

Conservatives actually seem to believe that it is their god-given, absolute right to steal as much as they can. They have armies of lawyers working for them, Not to help them obey the law, but to help them hide their crimes and make sure that they don't get caught. Or, to get them off when they do.

They have Congressmen in their pockets to keep that taxpayers cash flowing. Making sure that the laws are written to benefit their efforts to gather and keep more wealth. The small company with four or five employees can't participate at all in that system. It is reserved exclusively for the big multinational banks and service buisinesses.

I don't know any small buisinessman that can pay a dozen Lawyers $400 an hour each to plead his case for him in some congressmans office, or take him to dinner at some fancy-schmancy restaurant. That nice, fat manila envelope being slid under the table. That promise of support in the next election.

Thats why they insist on building $350 million aircraft instead of $10 Million ones for "National Defense". Never mind that the Nation can only afford 20 of the goddamn things. Like 20 fancy gold plated fighter jets can defend this country against people willing to strap explosives onto themselves and walk into a crowded subway station. Even the professionals in the Pentagon refer to that as "The poor mans air force".

Such super expensive hardware is NOT designed to defend the Country from an attack, it is designed to make as much profit for the manufacturer as possible. Its the same philosophy that brought us the Hummer and the Cadillac Escalade. Why put only 20 Pilots into aircraft that are too expensive and fragile to put at risk in combat, when you can build 4000 $15 Million aircraft for the same budget? Wars are won with numbers, logistics, not with having the fancier tools. Korea and Vietnam should have taught us that. Roosevelt and Eisenhower knew it. Kennedy did too.

Reagan had absolutly no clue. But he was an empty suit anyway.

Such a war philosophy only can work when the differences in the levels of technology are so vast that the less technologically advanced of the fighting parties are totally unable to defend themselves.

But that is a digression.

"Liberals" by the American definition of the term, see Government as being a resource for people in general. The schools, the post office, the safety nets like CPS and SS and medicare. The service that government can provide to help a civilized society define and maintain itself. Education, safe food, safe water, police and fire protection, real law enforcement when some banker or salesman robs you blind.

Real liberals don't have a problem with paying higher taxes as long as they see a real domestic benefit coming from it. Making sure the education system is accessable to everyone, keeping the parks and streets clean, the food and water supply safe, etc. That there are some things that need to be done for absolutely everyone in order for the society to maintain itself and prosper. That the profit motive is often something that interferes with that.

Greed and selfishness are NEGATIVE personality traits. Extremes of them fill prisons and mental hospitals. Two of the major symptoms of a sociopathic or antisocial personality are narcissism and greed. Every psychology textbook describes that in detail. Find an interview on youtube or something with someone like Ted Bundy if you want to see how that looks. That Blagovitch character in Michigan is a perfect example. So was Dino Rossi. Narcissistic to a bizarre extreme. He didn't even realize how stupid he looked when he spoke. That slick used-car salesman attitude has worn thin with the American Public.

Liberals don't really see the benefit of having a gigantic military machine that constantly needs increasing levels of funding to keep expanding itself. Especially when the $Trillion or so that goes into it every year seems to just dissapear down a rathole without a trace. We could put every person in the country through Harvard University for what we spend on the Air Force alone. Not to mention the giant espionage systems and black (hidden) budget projects that seem to be so important to the manufacturing concerns. Supporting wars that only really benefit the companies and individuals with a vested interest in the production of the weapons, ancillary equipment and the financing system that exists to support them.

As well as the outcome, either way it goes. Concerning Iraq, you think Halliburton and Bechtel and Citibank haven't hedged their bets both ways? You're damn right they have. Just like the banks, oil and weapons industries did in WW2. It's how the Prescott Bush worked it. The Bush family made a gigantic fortune from that war. They played both ends of it. Bush, Kennedy, Ford, DuPont, Coors and Hearst were all quite vocal in their support for the National-socialist German Workers Party during the early and mid 1930's. The alternative, at least to them, was communism. There were no shades of gray. No room for commonalities.

As for the two-party system, the parties themselves are easily defined. There are plenty of conservative democrats, but ZERO liberal republicans. Most college professors, who tend to be very well educated people and have spent a lot of time actually studying and researching things, are liberals, and Democrats. The most visible Conservatives all tend to come from extremely wealthy or religious family backrounds. Their definitions of what is right or wrong is very narrowly defined and totally absolute. It IS or it ISN'T. Black and White. No room for gray areas or careful consideration of an issue. They also seem to tend toward Nihilism, that every perception is personal. That everything is just a matter of opinion no matter what the subject. They rarely do any actual research into a subject, they work from predefined suppositions and never really question the source of those suppositions. Liberals don't do that so much. They study the thing first, often for years, and then come up with their own fucked up solutions that dont really ever seem to address the problem at its most basic level. The road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions.

Sometimes a scumbag is just a scumbag. Everyone has limits to their compassion and tolerance. Thats what Prisons and mental hospitals are for. Its why the Rule of law exists.

The upshot is, no matter how far the Human Race has come, no matter what our level of technology or knowlege, we still seem to be in the same fucked up boat we were 500 years ago. Nothing has really changed all that much. The difference is, that now we have a greater knowlege of how things like financial systems work.


"The study of money, above all other fields is one in which complexity is used to disguise truth or evade truth, not to reveal it. "

- John Kenneth Galbraith

Jesus, another wall of fucking text. I gotta quit drinking coffee after lunch.

[Six6VI]

Jesus, another wall of fucking text. I gotta quit drinking coffee after lunch.

When, exactly, do you take your lunch and how much coffee do you drink???

Jeez, and I thought I was bad with the caffeine. I'll get back to this in the morning.



Lee

[derek666]

You,DF, should be a damn liberal writer instead of whatever you do, I forget, metal milling??? Anyways, that Blagovich from Michigan would be ex- Dem gov of Illinois Rod Blagojevich.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Blagojevich

There are a bunch of liberal GOP also, Olympia Snowe of Maine , Gordon Smith from right south of us come to mind. If greed is a negative, then lock me up like you say!! I can barely support my family, let alone footing the bill for motherfuckers abusing welfare or flying signs everywhere. Heres an easy way for everyone to save themselves money on food, offer any one of those sign holders half of what their food part of their card is worth, and you will get it and save yourself a shitload.

[DeathFrogg]

You,DF, should be a damn liberal writer instead of whatever you do, I forget, metal milling??? Anyways, that Blagovich from Michigan would be ex- Dem gov of Illinois Rod Blagojevich.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Blagojevich

There are a bunch of liberal GOP also, Olympia Snowe of Maine , Gordon Smith from right south of us come to mind. If greed is a negative, then lock me up like you say!! I can barely support my family, let alone footing the bill for motherfuckers abusing welfare or flying signs everywhere. Heres an easy way for everyone to save themselves money on food, offer any one of those sign holders half of what their food part of their card is worth, and you will get it and save yourself a shitload.

That doesn't make you greedy, it makes you desperate. You are not being paid enough to support your family in the wealthiest nation on the planet. They would rather you borrowed the money to feed them. They would rather you stay scared and a little bit hungry and just go along with letting the billionaires keep more for themselves.

Believe me, I'm in the same boat. My wages haven't gone up a penny in ten years. Meanwhile, everything else has gone up. Fuel, Food, Insurance is through the roof, goddamn rent has gone up so much no that I have to move into a smaller place further away from work. When Bush became President, my federal taxes went UP. I now pay, including all State and Federal, close to 30% of my income in taxes. I used to get $1100 or so back on my return every year. In the last 7 years, that has dwindled down to around $150. And I havent changed a thing on my W-4.

Those sign holders are working in an organized buisiness. Literally. I have seen them change shifts several times. They're working for somebody. Shades of the old "beggars mafia" in places like India and old London. I stopped giving them money when a freind of mines Pop stopped and offered a family some work. They looked all ragged and poor and hungry with their kids standing next to 99 in Edmonds next to where Edmonds Way crosses under. Del offered the guy ten bucks an hour cash to help me and his son clear out the blackberry brambles in his back yard. Dude turned him down flat. A couple hours later, My chum and I drove past where they were standing, and they were piling their kids into what looked like a brand new Volvo.

The ones on the offramp next to my place here all seem to be well fed, able bodied looking younger dudes. They all claim to be ex-military, and it seems like at least one motorist hands them a fiver every time I stop at that light.

Things is fucked up man. The French had the right idea back in the day.

[Blonde leading the blonde]

Both parties are at ABSOLUTE fault for this mess not just one or the other. Obama is NOT the savior too many people think he is, he is another pawn for the elite! One day, people will have to realize this and shit will hit the fan and the revolutionary war part 2 will begin! People have to be getting tired of being fucked over?!

I only just read this, being up to my neck in stuff at work, what with all the layoffs and such, but I wanted to comment.

In reading through the whole thread at once, which I did and then came back to this, I think we're mixing up 2 different issues into one. Are politicians corruput? Well, if you haven't been living in a snow cave in Antarctica, you likely believe at least most of them are, and you're like to agree to that without naming a single party. OK, and it's fair to note that corrupt people rarely lie, cheat and steal in the fairy tale Robin Hood sort of way -- they typically take from anyone dumb enough to give, and give it to themselves. I think most people will agree with you on this.

That said, which set of generally-accepted, published in the mainstream media, vaguely more or less followed on the surface, political socio-economic theory is more likely to benefit the American people right now -- Dem or GOP? IMO, Dem. Yes, $400 hammers and $50 frillion planes. Right. Well, there's some other shit to sort out, too, obviously. But, short of a revolution that likely won't happen, how can we help ourselves? IMO, the answer is to set the surface stuff up the Dem way.

Can someone who does more in-depth research than me remind me? I don't know if I'm having a selective memory or not. It seems to me that in my lifetime, or at least the portion of which I was aware, we've had a stock market crash or a recession with each Republican President. Is that right? Is there a chicken/egg thing going on?