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DeathFrogg
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Post by DeathFrogg » Mon May 24, 2010 7:48 pm

BP has completely fucked the gulf coast, the eastern seaboard, probably all the way to Cape Hatteras or beyond. By Federal law, and international treaty, the Federal government is prohibited from interfering with drilling operations in international waters. That since Reagan was president. BP is claiming that this spill is happening in international waters. They have dictated to the Coast Guard, and have hired Blackwater (now called Xe) mercenaries to prevent any independent surveys on just how bad it really is.

Now, I'm sure that Ophidian and a few others in here would cry OMG SOCIALISM!!!!!1111 if there were any attempts made by the US Navy to really do anything to unfuck this situation. But the reality is, this spill has totally destroyed the fishing grounds of most of the southern United States. It has destroyed the beaches that so many local communities depend on for tourist dollars. It will destroy some of the most fragile ecosystems in US waters and the local economies they support.

This shit is already showing up in Key West, and as soon as the Gulf Stream catches the bulk of the shit, it'll be dragged along the coastline, around the Florida penis all the way up past the Carolinas. Say goodbye to the pristine beaches in the Bahamas and Bimini. Say goodbye to most of the beaches and fishing grounds on the east coast. The fisheries along the coast there support almost 2/3 of the entire U.S. fishing industry.

With Hurricane season just two weeks away, and this year is looking to be a bad one for Hurricanes, they better do something to shut this gusher off, like right fucking NOW.

BP has consistently lied all the way through this. They said at first that the spill was no more than 1000 barrels per day. Then they were forced to "restate" the spill to 5000 Bbls/day. Now, actual figures are approaching 80,000 Bbls/day, with some folks making noises about 200,000 Bbls/day, that is if they lost the wellhead and are getting cavitation around the borehole.

There are 42 gallons per barrel. That means, two weeks after the gusher started, they had already surpassed the Exxon Valdez spill, and will surpass the Ixtoc spill by about the 10th of June. Of course, the corporate media are keeping mum on the real extent of this spill, they aren't being paid to tell the truth about anything anymore. They are just mercenaries for the corporations, working for the highest bidder. So much for a free press.

But thats just the Free Market, right?

Interesting read here. Some background on what the process is and some pretty good visuals on what they do in this industry.

Watch this. Then try to tell me that BP is doing it's job. This is a crude-oil Chernobyl is what it is. Drill baby fuckin DRILL. I'm sure the GOP and the christians are furiously masturbating about the next election cycle.

What needs to happen, is BP, Halliburton, Transoceanic and who ever else can be found to be held responsible for this incredible disaster should have their corporate charters permanently revoked, the executives lined up against the wall and shot, and all their personal assets, as well as all the business assets of the companies confiscated and sold off at auction, just like they do with the nickle-bag pot dealers. They must be utterly destroyed. Knowing what Ixtoc was, in only 60 meters of water, they have had over 30 years to prepare for this sort of thing, but now, they have to wing it and hope something works. The wellhead is almost a mile under the surface.

What this is, is proof of the peak oil question. That is, we are now drilling at levels beyond our technology to mitigate in case of a disaster like this. If oil was so easy to find, there would be no need for this type of operation. This is the deepest rig in the world, almost a mile to the sea floor, and over 18,000 feet to the bottom of the well. Well beyond the limits of the technology to repair.

That is, presuming the drillers are telling the truth about how deep they actually drilled, and not the rumors of a real depth of around 25,000 feet below the sea floor. This would be off license, and that means several serious felonies were committed. BP has consistently tried to SALVAGE this well, instead of just capping it off as they should be doing. They are using dispersants, chemicals that have been banned by every other country in the world for their toxicity, except for the United States. Chemicals made by a subsidiary corporation of BP oil.

Lunatics like Rand Paul and his father, as well as Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh have already expressed their position, that the Government has no right to interfere, and should not be involved. That it is UNAMERICAN for government to regulate how the oil companies do business. That this spill was caused by too many regulations where these operations are concerned, never mind that BP and Transoceanic have received several waivers on their equipment and drilling procedures. Never mind that the licenses for this well were issued in 2007, and their apparent drilling plans were not even reviewed by the Department of the interior when those licenses were issued.

Tell that to the Shrimpers, the oystermen, the tuna fisheries and all the other ocean-dependant industries along the gulf coast and eastern seaboard. This spill is going to fuck our economy, and fuck the Gulf of Mexico environment for decades, if not a couple centuries.

But, its all good right? Thank god for capitalism.
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Post by derek666 » Mon May 24, 2010 10:26 pm

Why bring talk radio nutbags into this? I say since Bush was blamed for Katrina, Obama should be blamed for this!!!! He should have swam down to the depths and plugged the pipe himself damnit!

Anyways, why is the O administration doing nothing? It is a National emergency, destroying our waterways, life, and vegitaion all up and down the whole coastal areas, soon to be all over the east and probably west coast when the hurricanes start hitting down there!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... =rss_print

this spill pisses me off simply because Obama flip flopped on something that would have created jobs and probably brought gas prices down, offshore drilling!! so much for the offshore drilling now.

Those rich bastards along with the government need to jump on this massive spill and get the shit cleaned the fuck up!! Actions instead of words.

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Post by derek666 » Mon May 24, 2010 10:34 pm

I forgot, this shit is on every single news network on tv so this comment

"There are 42 gallons per barrel. That means, two weeks after the gusher started, they had already surpassed the Exxon Valdez spill, and will surpass the Ixtoc spill by about the 10th of June. Of course, the corporate media are keeping mum on the real extent of this spill, they aren't being paid to tell the truth about anything anymore. They are just mercenaries for the corporations, working for the highest bidder. So much for a free press."

holds no merit whatsoever! in fact it is the numero uno topic on both MSNBC and FOX, both political affiliate news stations, and on my directtv news mix, 8 station's at once, basically the same words from all sides.

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Post by Adremelech » Mon May 24, 2010 11:06 pm

I'm flying down to Destin, Florida this weekend with the family to enjoy the pristine white beach while it lasts.
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Post by LIVE FO RETSINIM » Tue May 25, 2010 1:50 am

I may be alone on this stance, but I say LET THE OIL FLOW!!! Fuck this planet man, what has it done for us lately? ohh some corn?? Maybe some more tabacco?? How about those earthquakes a few months ago? And all the typhoons in the east. This planet has started a all out war against us, and I think it is time we fight back. I for one am tired of being crushed by falling overpasses, or having my home swept away by flooding. This is bullshit and we have to teach this planet who is boss. I say every coast start dumping all their oil and anything you have toxic into the ocean until mother nature subsides and does what we tell it. We will not stand for these "natural disasters" any longer.

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Post by DeathFrogg » Tue May 25, 2010 11:07 pm

Confirmed, the wellhead blew off about two weeks ago, and the company continues to lowball estimates of actual flow, and refused to allow anyone not working for BP to examine the wellhead or the flow rate. Photographers are being evicted from beaches by contract security personnel, and the big cheese in the Coast Guard is still wringing his hands and has no clue at all what to do.

Fucker should shoot himself. He's just flat out too fucking stupid and incompetent to do his job.

Estimated gusher flow is somewhere between 80,000-100,000 bbls per day,and will likely continue to flow at this rate until at least the middle of August. The Chairman of BP believes the company is too big and important to be hassled by the government, and should not be subjected to any criticism about this god-awful mess his company has created.

FTA:
In an interview published Tuesday by FT, Svanberg painted the oil company's relationship with the U.S. as one that was mutually beneficial to both parties. "The US is a big and important market for BP, and BP is also a big and important company for the US, with its contribution to drilling and oil and gas production," Svanberg said. "So the position goes both ways."

Svanberg dismissed calls for a government takeover of the effort to plug the well and said that "if we do the right thing," BP's reputation may not suffer long-term damage.


Does anyone care about the three or four million people whose livelihoods are going to be utterly destroyed by this? Why is nobody protesting? The coastal fishing industry in the Gulf of Mexico is gone. No more shrimp unless it's imported, no more Etouffee`, no more Gumbo. The beaches are going to be slimed for decades. Barry O better do something real after this is over. Like executing the entire board of directors of BP, for starters.
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Post by AchimbaProphet » Wed May 26, 2010 12:23 am

What a travesty.
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Post by derek666 » Wed May 26, 2010 12:28 am

where did you come up with this statement? "Photographers are being evicted from beaches by contract security personnel"

I honestly can't find anything anywhere about that statement anywhere?!?!

although I do see thousands and thousands of pictures and videos of the massive peanut butter looking waters. and Why should Barry O wait until after this is over to do something? He should be stepping the fuck up and start forcing the dipshits to get off their asses and get to fixing and cleaning that shit up!!!

where is the outrage at B-Rock? I can only imagine the horseshit that would be flying on here if it were still Bush or any Repuppet in the oval office right now!!!

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Post by DeathFrogg » Wed May 26, 2010 2:45 am

Obviously, you haven't been paying attention. There are several people saying that BP security personnel and local law enforcement have been confiscating oil samples and dead animals from biologists and environmental activists all over Louisiana and Alabama coastlines.

It is too big to hide anything though, there are dead whales, birds and fish washing up on beaches as far south as Clearwater Florida. BP has "embedded" several hundred reporters in the cleanup effort, but those reporters are required to only report what BP is telling them, and BP requires vetting of all reports made by those reporters before broadcasting or publishing. This is NOT a free press situation, BP is calling the shots.

Live camera feed. Sorta interesting, but not really. There was some action before with the ROVs and some other equipment. That pipe is 19.5 inches in diameter, the standing water pressure there is 165 atmospheres, a little under 5000 feet deep. the oil is blasting out of this particular hole at around 5000 PSI. And this isn't the Blowout preventer. Thats a big white tower looking thing you can see occasionally from another camera. That flow is through a smaller diameter, around 12 inches, but the pressure is the same.

This is what happens when you let the police party hearty with the people they're supposed to be policing. Things got WAY too friendly during the Bush administration.

At $4500 per barrel spilled, the fine will be in the hundreds of billions of dollars.
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When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. -Sinclair Lewis


"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. - Thomas Jefferson

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Post by PnDsCm » Wed May 26, 2010 8:43 am

I'm really unsure why people assume that the federal government would have the means to stop this blowout. They aren't in the business of deep water drilling and certainly don't have the means or the knowledge to deal with it. Coordinating the effort with oil tech companies may be sensible, but what the fuck. I know everyone is pissed, but the .gov isn't MAGIC.

If you really want to get upset, check out Matt Simmons on the Ratigan show the other day. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32450072/vp ... 5#37322455 He's no schlump when it comes to oil and he suggests that it is quite possible that this may not be fixable and that you would be looking at 9000 days of flow if it isn't capped. Try to imagine what that would do.

The best option for anyone who wants to help in the face of this tragedy is to quit driving, quit eating, quit heating your home, don't have children and kill yourself as soon as possible.

Seriously, we are proving to be just as intelligent as yeast.
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Post by DeathFrogg » Wed May 26, 2010 9:34 am

That is the crux of the problem isn't it.

You want to stop supporting these companies, you pretty much have to go back to the lifestyle people had a thousand years ago. We are held hostage to our own technological advances, and the companies and raw materials that make them possible. They pretty much have a gun to our heads.

Nobody should have this power.

Donald Rumsfeld cut a shitload of "excess" from the military back in the early days of the Bush administration, choosing to shift a lot of the responsibilities that the military used to keep for itself to private companies under permanent contract. That included the US Navy dive and Salvage school, considered the best in the world until Bush became President. Much of the equipment was sold off or scrapped, and the school reduced to a training center that had no responsibility other than to train Salvage operators at taxpayers expense so they could then leave the Navy after their enlistment was up and go work for companies like Halliburton and Bechtel and Oceanic.

We used to have the capability, now we can't even supervise. All that equipment, all that expertise is gone.
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When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. -Sinclair Lewis


"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. - Thomas Jefferson

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Post by DeathFrogg » Wed May 26, 2010 12:05 pm

Pretty good website on equipment definitions and materials, nicely not too technical. Good info.
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"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. - Thomas Jefferson

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Post by derek666 » Wed May 26, 2010 3:38 pm

DeathFrogg wrote:Obviously, you haven't been paying attention. There are several people saying that BP security personnel and local law enforcement have been confiscating oil samples and dead animals from biologists and environmental activists all over Louisiana and Alabama coastlines.
That is completely different then what you said previously--"Photographers are being evicted from beaches by contract security personnel"

as opposed to your above statement. Huge difference between being evicted by contract personel and confiscating oil samples. So I must be paying attention since I caught that along with your blame of Rumsfeld. Was there not other's like say William Cohen just to name one, that cut way way more than Rumsfeld!!!

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Post by Jenzy » Wed May 26, 2010 4:05 pm

DeathFrogg wrote:That is the crux of the problem isn't it.

You want to stop supporting these companies, you pretty much have to go back to the lifestyle people had a thousand years ago. We are held hostage to our own technological advances, and the companies and raw materials that make them possible. They pretty much have a gun to our heads.
Not to sound like a hippy or hypocrite (I don't drive a hybrid by any means) but it is possible to live a life with other natural resources. Resources that don't cause such eco-damage if a "spillage" occurs.

Problem is- how many decades have we had big oil filling government pockets?

We could have freed ourselves from being oil slaves if the focus had shifted 2 decades ago. Unfortunately we all be oil slicked before that happens.

I think they should take all the BP execs and drop them in the middle of that oil filled ocean and let them die out there. Let the reason of their wealth be the cause of their death.


With all the "natural" disasters and such as well I think mother nature is saying it's time to shake the fleas she calls humans off the planet.

It's a shame. I was planning on scuba diving down there this year. :mad:
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Post by PnDsCm » Thu May 27, 2010 6:04 am

Jenzy wrote:but it is possible to live a life with other natural resources. Resources that don't cause such eco-damage if a "spillage" occurs.
Unfortunately Jenzy, that's just not true.

For anyone who thinks all we have to do is start building wind turbines and solar panels to get off oil as a source of power you need to ask yourself how turbines and solar panels are manufactured. Think about how your clothes are manufactured and then delivered to you. Think about how your food is grown, processed, packaged and delivered to you. Think about how every facet of life in the industrial world is powered by your friend the hydrocarbon.

It's not a fun thought, but the planet wouldn't have the population it does now (radically smaller in fact) if it weren't for the use of oil. I again impore anyone who wants to help stop drilling for oil to kill themselves and as many others as possible. Either that or stop eating, moving, or buying anything.

Regardless of whether you are interested in peak oil or not, Matt Savinar lays it out pretty well at http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ Scroll down the page to the paragraph heading "Big Deal, If gas prices get high I'll just drive less" If they really do shut down offshore drilling it's going to accelerate the process so get ready for a shitstorm.

If we really wanted to get ready then the US would be undergoing a crash course to build nukes starting RIGHT NOW. Of course for a variety of reasons that isn't very palatable either so you won't see it happening. Just remember this though. If you ever hear a politician talking about "stopping our dependence on foreign oil", you know they are lying to you. Just run the numbers and you know it's bullshit.

As for the hybrids. What a sad waste of materials and engineering. Carting around shitloads of toxic battery in a $30K box only to get 45mpg? For fuck's sake I used to get 55mpg in a '80 vw rabbit diesel. Why don't they just build more of those and sell them for $10k? They do a better job.
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Post by DeathFrogg » Thu May 27, 2010 8:08 am

List of shit that comes from Petroleum, that our civilization cannot function without, (all this just off the top of me head):

Motor fuels: Diesel, Gasoline, Bunker

Gases: Methane, Propane, Butane, Acetaldehydes, Helium, Neon, Xenon, Chlorine (too many to list here really, there are several hundred)

Lubricants
Solvents
Plastics
Fertilizers
Acids
Alkalies
Silicone

Chemicals that are used in the manufacturing of:

Pharmaceuticals
Fungicides
Insecticides
Herbicides
Paint and stains
Industrial coatings
Food preservatives


Really, the list is endless.


Thats just a short list of basics. Take anything out, and we have to restart the entire process of re-learning how to do something that our industrial processes have already spent a century or two figuring out how to do with petroleum products.

You can not:
Make batteries without acids or plastics.
Make plastics without solvents.
Grow most fruits, vegetables or grains without herbicides or fungicides.
Have machinery without lubricants.


Think about that. Thats fucking everything we do. The entirety of our modern civilization is based on petroleum technology, and the raw materials petroleum provides. If we stop using petroleum for motor fuels, we still need it for almost everything else. Concentrate on making lubricants for machinery, plastics or foundation chemicals, gasoline and the entire range of diesel fuels become waste products that still need to be disposed of. Thats tens of billions of tons of the shit.

Petroleum is the new gold, and we literally pave our streets with it. But we cannot stop using it or extracting it from the Earth, or we go back to what things were in Roman Empire times. Nuclear technology is extremely dangerous, the waste generated remains toxic for millions of years and the machinery is far too fragile to rely on without constant attention and maintenance by highly educated personnel.

We are out of canyons to dam for hydroelectric power. Wind, solar, ocean currents can provide some, but not all of our electricity.

And you cannot make solar panels (or any electronics) without petroleum. It is physically impossible.

Now, the shit is running out. It is becoming harder to find in places where it can be easily extracted, so we keep going farther afield to find it and building more dangerous operations to extract it. What this BP fuckup is, is proof of peak Oil. We are now trying to extract it from places that are almost impossible to get it from without taking on huge risks of totally fucking things up.
PnDsCm wrote: For fuck's sake I used to get 55mpg in a '80 vw rabbit diesel. Why don't they just build more of those and sell them for $10k? They do a better job.
God those were terrible cars. Gutless, tinny, cheaply manufactured and the engines were complete shit. I watched one spectacularly grenade itself in the shop once on the runaway diesel effect. When I was a kid, my girlfriend at the time, her dad had one, and it was in the shop as much as it was on the road. It was always breaking down. They were barely a step above the Trebant.
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"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. - Thomas Jefferson

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Post by PnDsCm » Thu May 27, 2010 8:40 am

DeathFrogg wrote:
God those were terrible cars. Gutless, tinny, cheaply manufactured and the engines were complete shit. I watched one spectacularly grenade itself in the shop once on the runaway diesel effect. When I was a kid, my girlfriend at the time, her dad had one, and it was in the shop as much as it was on the road. It was always breaking down. They were barely a step above the Trebant.
I had pretty good luck with that one except for burning up clutches... Seriously though, if you could build a car 30 years ago that got 55mpg using OLD technology, what sense does a hybrid make? None if you ask me.

Disclosure: I LOVE VWs
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Post by DeathFrogg » Thu May 27, 2010 11:35 am

Hybrids are basically crap anyway. Firefighters hate them, because they run high voltage power conduits through sections of the body that a firefighter would have to cut to rescue folks after a wreck. My pop calls them "Hyperids" because the marketing and such is all hype. They're too expensive for anyone but rich folks, and the maintenance costs are ridiculous.

At any rate, shits starting to hit the fan, legal-wise.

Play this whilst you ponder.
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When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. -Sinclair Lewis


"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. - Thomas Jefferson

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Post by Adremelech » Thu May 27, 2010 9:50 pm

Speaking of Hybrids... it has been shown that over the course of the life of a Hybrid, from manufacture to the junkyard, a hybrid actually consumes MORE energy than a Hummer. Hybrids consume a huge amount of energy to produce. Take that, hippies!

As for the oil, the Earth is still swimming in it. It's not going to deplete in our lifetime, or even our kids' lifetime. It's the depletion of CHEAP oil that is causing the problem. We'll still have everything we have now. It's just going to cost a lot more in the coming years. As it should be, in my opinion. It's best for future generations that we slow our rape of the planet. I say bring on the expensive fuel, and the resulting price hike of nearly everything. People are delusional if they think that the good times should keep rolling. That will just make us crash even harder down the road.
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Post by PnDsCm » Fri May 28, 2010 11:26 am

Joe, you might want to append that to "We'll still have everything we have now, but far FEWER of us will have it." And get ready for a radical change in our social structure.
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Post by axe_man » Fri May 28, 2010 8:05 pm

Deathfrogg:

You said "lubricant"


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Post by Adremelech » Fri May 28, 2010 8:46 pm

PnDsCm wrote:Joe, you might want to append that to "We'll still have everything we have now, but far FEWER of us will have it." And get ready for a radical change in our social structure.
True and true. And just wait for the wars that ensue over the remaining cheap oil. Gee... Will the US be involved in every one of those? :-)

Think positive for that little girl of yours though man. I do for mine.:cheers:
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Post by DeathFrogg » Fri May 28, 2010 9:57 pm

Adremelech wrote:True and true. And just wait for the wars that ensue over the remaining cheap oil. Gee... Will the US be involved in every one of those? :-)

Think positive for that little girl of yours though man. I do for mine.:cheers:
We have been so far. Vietnam, Nigeria, Iraq, Afghanistan, our total support for Israel, all about oil.

How many more 18-19 year olds must we kill and main to keep them Hummers running?
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Post by derek666 » Fri May 28, 2010 10:57 pm

DeathFrogg wrote:We have been so far. Vietnam, Nigeria, Iraq, Afghanistan, our total support for Israel, all about oil.

How many more 18-19 year olds must we kill and main to keep them Hummers running?
Hummers? what about this comment- DeathFrogg List of shit that comes from Petroleum, that our civilization cannot function without, (all this just off the top of me head):

Motor fuels: Diesel, Gasoline, Bunker

Gases: Methane, Propane, Butane, Acetaldehydes, Helium, Neon, Xenon, Chlorine (too many to list here really, there are several hundred)

Lubricants
Solvents
Plastics
Fertilizers
Acids
Alkalies
Silicone

Chemicals that are used in the manufacturing of:

Pharmaceuticals
Fungicides
Insecticides
Herbicides
Paint and stains
Industrial coatings
Food preservatives


Really, the list is endless.


Thats just a short list of basics. Take anything out, and we have to restart the entire process of re-learning how to do something that our industrial processes have already spent a century or two figuring out how to do with petroleum products.

You can not:
Make batteries without acids or plastics.
Make plastics without solvents.
Grow most fruits, vegetables or grains without herbicides or fungicides.
Have machinery without lubricants.

make up your mind!!!

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Post by derek666 » Fri May 28, 2010 11:07 pm

jebus christ, we could go back and forth for days over this shit. You libs are fucking funny, for years ya bitch about the "war for oil" blah blah and here it is 2010 and none of you can make up your minds where you stand on this except " line up the exec's and kill em" and " how many 18 and 19 y/o kids need to die to keep them hummer's running"

why don't every single one of you anti oil, blame game shit talkers do away with everything that requires oil to produce what you take for granted!! Make your own clothes, grow your own foods, walk, use rain water to drink and bathe with etc etc Every single damn thing that you use or eat or need gets to you in one way or another by a product of some sort that uses OIL!!


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